🎤Want to know how to ADVANCE Customer Experience? Find out in “The one with the Dashers vs Defenders” from Dennis Wakabayashi CX Passport Episode 68🎧
👨🏫Adaptive Learning - "Normalize Failure...Normalize Risk"
✨BREAKING NEWS - "CX Undercover" coming out this summer!
😲Get the popcorn ready. We do it. We bring up the CX Influencer Debate
👉It's been true. It is true. It will be true. The front line is the epicenter of customer experience
🍸A Crazy Bar Story in Tokyo
🦺No safety in CX? - Dashers vs Defenders
😵A Siberian Diamond Mine as the dream place to travel next?
👀Head to 25:10 to learn about The Efficiency of CX
💭“Every time you see an influencer, what you're seeing is someone trying to bring their art to business” - Dennis
Episode resources:
Twitter @voiceofCX
Insta - @WhatIsDennisDoing
Dennis: denniswakabayashi.com
Dennis’ Team: teamwakabayashi.com
The Siberian Diamond Mine - Mir Mine: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_mine
Influencer Management: heartbeat.com
TRANSCRIPT
Rick Denton: 0:05
You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. I started CX passport to have interesting conversations with interesting people, regardless of where they are in the world. That's the whole idea of the password. What's wonderful about this approach is that past guests are often the best source of future guests that keeps me virtually bouncing around the world with these conversations. It's truly a small world. That's what makes today's chat a bit surreal for me, even though today's guest lives maybe 20 to 30 minutes from where I live. It took a conversation that I had with Alex Mead, episode 61 If you'd like to have a listen, living in Bahrain, originally from the UK, to connect me with Dennis Wakabayashi, who is truly just 20 minutes down the road from me. Many of you follow and learn from Dennis today as his voice is heard throughout the CX and marketing and really business in general world. His approach is to connect, connect businesses to solutions ideas to ideas, people to people. And well those of you who already know Dennis Customer Experience wisdom, do you also know about the craziest bar story in Tokyo. No? Well keep listening. And soon you will, Dennis? Welcome to CX passport.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 1:37
Rick. Hello, sir. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Rick Denton: 1:41
Let's get going. This is going to be delightful. All right, I want to start off with something that's the recent past for you. And it's Expo 2020. Dubai, which due to COVID was held in 2021 2022. But you bring together 192 countries, it had to have been an amazing place to understand culture and explore that across borders and experience a wide range of customer experience. It certainly speaks to the spirit in the name of CX passport, I realize this could take the entire episode. But what surprised you, especially from a customer experience perspective, during your time there at EXPO 2020 Dubai, you know,
Dennis Wakabayashi: 2:14
there were there were a couple of big surprises. And the first one was the idea, let's just, let's take a step back and think about the idea, you have a area of land that's twice the size of Monaco. And it's a clean slate to produce the most forward thinking experiences of mankind or humankind in the world. So they thought about everything from the architecture and the way the architecture sat in the geography to conduct the breeze ways to capture the best wind. That is, that's a level of experience that is sort of next or even top level. And I would also say that the other surprising thing was I've been going around and talking to a lot of CX people. And when I say CX people, I mean, from every walk of life and every kind of brand. And in the US, we are waking up to this idea of adaptive learning or failing forward. And at EXPO Dubai Expo 2020, Dubai, every one of the leaders that I interviewed, they all had a common sense of normalizing failure or normalizing risk. And in normalizing it, saying it's okay that some of your risks don't pan out, because at that point, you know, how to make the risk less or make the experience better. And so the culture of adaptive learning that I found in Dubai was by far the most free thinking and more most empowered anywhere in the world.
Rick Denton: 3:54
Interesting, you know, I think, at some of us can be somewhat self centered, right. As humans, we're tend to think of ourselves in our own worlds, and those of us in the western world might think, well, we're clearly the forward thinking, right. But you had a completely different experience there. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that that adaptive learning is so much further ahead in other regions, other geographies, other cultures than it might be for what we're experiencing here in the West?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 4:20
Well, I'll speak it speak to Dubai. EXPO 2020, Dubai had alignment from the cultural entertainment industries, the government as well as business and finance. And so I think, while in the US, we do have several forward thinking leaders and from brands to see it come across sectors of the population was pretty profound. And I think part of it is the the opportunity to create from a clean slate. You know, creation requires adaptation. And I think in the US for mature businesses, we are one part adapting but One part holding on to a foundation of economics that holds us a little bit, holds us back a little
Rick Denton: 5:07
that has, I'm smiling and nodding from memories that I have that are decades old, because sometimes more in a project management space, and a lot of that was system implementation, that kind of stuff. And it was so much easier to start with a brand new company a brand new slate of technology, rather than to start from the old technology and adapt it and I imagine experience and even customer experiences in that same way. And I'm thinking given all of the companies that you've been in and out of right you have you worked with a bunch of companies and individuals inside of CX, but even outside of CX I imagine you've walked into some really messy customer experience situations before and helped turn them around. I'm curious, what would be some of the craziest stories or if you prefer the most successful stories you've experienced?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 5:51
Rick, I've got a surprise for you, sir. Yeah, I, I'm going to break this news on your show.
Rick Denton: 6:01
Oh, wow. I feel very honored. Yes. I don't have a breaking news sounder. So let's make one up. But go for it.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 6:07
So to answer that question, what are the craziest most wild stories, I think we all have those. But I've been working with a CX collaborator to remain unnamed at this time, we have a series of content coming out this summer called CX undercover. And they've been behind the lines inside brands working in the customer care on the retail floor and documenting real experiences. And so what I would say is one of the stories there is the actual relationships between the employees, helping folks on the floor, and those relationships with the customers. And it doesn't always work out as planned. And there's some revelations about how we, as CX practitioners put process in place that actually defeats the entire point of customer experience.
Rick Denton: 7:03
Wow. Oh, I can't wait to hear some of those stories. It fits. Go ahead.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 7:10
I would love to, because I'm announcing it for the first time here. I would love to break it. The whole story with you I, I mentioned before we started how much I appreciate and respect you as a content creator, how much work goes into these podcasts. And one of the things I have as a personal mission this year is I want to give back something special to every person, every content creator, who allows me the honor of being on their show. So if you'd like to collaborate with us to release the first episode, I would be more than happy and honored.
Rick Denton: 7:42
Hey, listeners, guess what? I think we Dennis and I just came to an agreement here live on the show. So yeah, that does sound interesting there. It does speak to this whole concept of what you did I love the idea of CX undercover. Because I know I've talked about it, I know you've talked about this, as well as where is experienced, created? Well, it's created at the front lines, who knows experience better, it's at the front lines. And so often companies or even those of us that are in the CX space are guilty of being practitioners that might design an experience in a conference room designer, because we have these beautiful customer journey maps and and we think we've got the insight. And then the frontline gets what we think is the inside and immediately just puts their palm to their head and thinks what on earth are they thinking back there? You know, quote, headquarters, and getting that frontline? Input is so vital to making sure that one you know what's actually happening. But to that what you're suggesting even makes sense?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 8:35
Yes. You know, speaking of ALEC speed, something he said the other day that really spoke to me on this topic is he said, CFC is easier at the top. And it's true. It's very true. Until you get down on that cash register or on that showroom floor. Or in the in the conversation with the customer. You don't truly know what's happening. Right what it is,
Rick Denton: 9:02
yeah. And what I remember inspired by that my first job in high school was a checker at a grocery store having to deal with customers. And i Little did I know that that would influence me for two years, like oh, did I say that number out loud. But anyway, many, many years later. But it exactly that when you're there punching the buttons, pushing the CANS through the scanner, or whatever that looks like and looking at lines eight deep and knowing the frustration the customers, that's when you really realize what customer experience delivery is all about.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 9:31
That's right. And it's complex. It's not just data and analytics, we're dealing with humans, beings who have to be someplace quickly or they have a personal need. And that personal need at any given time affects the way they interact with our businesses and our businesses really don't account for empathy in their mathematical analysis.
Rick Denton: 9:54
We haven't quite gotten quite gotten to the point that AI understands how to calculate input See, you're right. So I wonder, I wonder if we may have already answered this. But I'm curious, what do you think is the most important or the best skill for someone to have or to perhaps cultivate? If they're trying to make customer experience better?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 10:12
You know, I made, I would have answered this question a lot differently then, before going to Expo 2020, Dubai, okay. And a simple truth was given to me by a gentleman named Jad Hindi, who asked me to come in and, and cover those stories. And he said, trust your gut. Now, that sounds easy, it sounds like broad sweeping. But when you have to trust your gut to do something new, or to do something outside of the normal process, or extra for a customer that maybe you weren't told to do by the management, this trusting your gut is the bravery I think it speaks to for customer experience, people who have to be different, do something unique to forward the practice.
Your CX Passport Captain: 11:05
This is your captain speaking. I want to thank you for listening to CX Passport today. We’ve now reached our cruising altitude so I’ll turn that seatbelt sign off. While you’re getting comfortable, hit that Follow or Subscribe button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. I’d love it if you’d tell a friend about CX Passport and leave a review so that others can discover the show as well. Now, sit back and enjoy the rest of the episode.
Rick Denton: 11:31
Trust your gut. I like that. And I think that's particularly insightful. I wonder though, because you said something in there, trust your gut, do something that maybe wasn't officially allowed or in practice? How can companies make sure that trust your gut is something that's either one the skills are there that someone can trust their gut, but then to they feel safe to trust their gut?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 11:52
I think that's what I meant about the bravery you there's no safety and customer experience is like as much as we like to speak about the high points and the benefits of CX. Every CX professional faces amount, a new amount of scrutiny and a legacy type of thinking that undermines all of the aspirations we have, we are stuck in the middle of how we've always done things that work for revenue, and risking the revenue for more. And unfortunately, the vast majority of people, I like to call them defenders, I respect them, and I applaud them, but defenders seek to defend the revenue that they have. And I think of the others as Dashers Dashers. Are these creators, people who dash to the front, people who are oftentimes, honestly, given the clean slate to start something fresh. Now, the Dashers run into the challenge. And it's just the reality of our business.
Rick Denton: 12:55
That's, that reminds me of a story. And it's not a story that will tell because I think it's widely known, right, but Howard Tiersky was...his episode just released today. In fact,
Dennis Wakabayashi: 13:04
I just listened to that.
Rick Denton: 13:06
Oh, good. I'm glad you liked it. But it released today, which now if you're listening to this a couple of weeks ago, but he was telling the story that as well told now a blockbuster and what happened to Blockbuster. And I think in that scenario describing those, the people that are protecting that revenue defenders, were defenders, thank you that we're a retail store, we're a retail company, therefore, let's make it a better retail experience, as opposed to there were people in the company saying no, we should do this that are the other things that well, you know, the one that nipping at their heels and took them over, came out with and launched. And some of those things exactly, the defenders got out, it got in the way of the Dashers. And in the end killed that company.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 13:45
It's so true. You know, the fundamental challenge with Dashers is they want commitments, and they don't really realize they they want commitments, why rather than relationships. Dashers tend to want relationships, they understand that the relationship may be temporary, they don't want a commitment or a contract. They want a relationship where you'll come back and there's a slight difference in strategies that emanate from those two philosophies.
Rick Denton: 14:13
I love that that is a thread that I did not anticipate pulling out but I want to pull it that a little bit because I think about companies that really tie you into contracts, the cliched gym contracts of the 90s that even ended up in lawsuits, right? Or no, it's such a great experience that you're gonna want to keep renewing and keep renewing. Why do you think that? Why would companies I almost don't want to ask it this way. But I think we're going to Why do you think companies have such little confidence in their own product that they feel they have to trap people in it?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 14:43
You know, I like I appreciate why you hesitated there. I don't think that they that's not their mentality. Good. The mentality is they have a builder mentality rather than a creator mentality. They build a foundation. It's logical, and they compound and their, their growth by stacking things one on top of each other, where newer companies are more dynamic you see this play out in working from home with around the clock more freedom, you see this happening with the whole adaptive learning fail forward mentality. Newer companies, digital companies tend to have a more open mindset and old school people tend to like to lock you in, get that, you know, our whole country was built on this. I mean, and just to put some credit in those, the defenders camp in the industrial revolution, they had to commit to giant factories they had to come in. So you know, it's just in their nature, and it's a good thing. It's just, it comes with its own set of strategic variables.
Rick Denton: 15:52
And it probably isn't like a lot of things right there. Neither extreme is the right extreme right, there is a blend to be struck that a company can can actually really need to be based, just like you said in that industrial type approach. So I can't wait any longer. I just can't I want to hear about that crazy bar story in Tokyo. I've got to just stop down and tell me what happened.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 16:13
All right, here's my craziest Tokyo bar story. I was in Tokyo traveling with some colleagues. And they said, We're going to take you out to the craziest bar in Tokyo. And I was like, Okay, great. I never been to Japan. So I was ready. I had heard stories, we met in an alleyway a nondescript alleyway? No, no, no. Sidewalks, an alley and just a private elevator. So the elevator door opens. And we get inside and he goes up to this floor, and the floor opens. And it's like, I'm thinking it's akin to one of those. What it speakeasies open up. And it's like a almost like a business office building. And on the right side, going all the way down is a giant bar, wooden bar, bartender. And on the other side of the room is all of these giant round tables, like conference tables, almost, with the lights, the fluorescent lights, and, and all of these people sitting around these tables, and they were all sort of dressed. Similarly, this was in the late 90s. They mostly had on jeans and like blue shirts, and some of them had on cowboy hats, even which I was wondering about. So we sit down, and we were talking to some people and I'm waiting for like the back secret door to open or the curtain you go up or whatever. And we're talking, and we're talking, we're there for about two hours talking all these people who are waiting with us. And then my friends get up and they say, alright, let's go. And they take me back over the elevator. And they take me back down to the alley. And they looked at me and they're like, Oh my God, was that the craziest bar you've ever been to? And I said, I don't think so. And they said, You didn't find it crazy that every single person in the bar spoke fluent English. And I just thought, Oh, that is very crazy. In Tokyo. Every single person, there was no Japanese spoken in the entire bar. And I asked why that was and they said, We thought you would like to go somewhere where everyone speaks English. And that bar was formed by all the tech people who've come over from the United States at from Microsoft or others. This is their private bar where they all get together so that no one has to speak Japanese to have a good time.
Rick Denton: 18:50
Well, Dennis, imagine that not only have you been into bars in Tokyo, you've been in bars around the world, you've been flying around the world, you've had plenty of travel under your belt. And sometimes that can be exhausting. So I want to invite you here a little change of pace join me here in the first class lounge. Let's take a rest we'll move quickly here and hopefully have a little bit of fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 19:10
My dream travel location is Portofino Italy, where 30 years ago I was married to my lovely wife at the hotel splendido.
Rick Denton: 19:19
Oh my gosh, I I'm just visualizing how beautiful that must have been.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 19:25
We're still married. Oh, that's good.
Rick Denton: 19:27
Okay, so it worked out. Well. Have you ever been back?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 19:29
No, but I'm taking the family to Italy this summer, the kids and my mother in law and my wife so yes, we might just pop by
Rick Denton: 19:37
that's a great idea. I think that'll be a lot of fun. What is a dream travel location you've not been to yet.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 19:43
I you know, one of the places that I really want to go is the Siberian diamond mind that is one wild mile wide and one mile deep. It's like the largest hole in the planet earth. My wife says I'm crazy. But if I could go if someone could gave me one ticket free and I could go anywhere I go to that Siberian diamond mine. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to go look up. It's a little shanty town around the whole edge of it. I mean, yeah,
Rick Denton: 20:10
I'm gonna have to look this up. First of all you've I think given me the most unique answer to that because no one has said diamond mine before no one has said Siberia before so Siberian diamond mind putting those together. That'll be interesting. I if I can I'll put that in the show notes to scroll down and have a look at some of the images of what the Siberian diamond mine Yes, it's fantastic. A favorite thing of yours to eat.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 20:35
You know, okay, if you know what we're being honest here. I don't have to have any secrets. My My worst kryptonite. Food is Jolly Ranchers. I like if there's a bag that Jolly Ranchers, someone has to take them away. Because, you know, I'm trying I tried to be fit. I tried to stay healthy. I eat mostly bland, tofu or, or proteins. So if there's a Jolly Rancher. Watch out. Watch out Rick.
Rick Denton: 21:04
I like that. And I liked the choice of the word kryptonite, because I'm visualizing the little green ones that I often found myself enjoying as well. I don't know the last time I've had a Jolly Rancher now you're making me want to have one. You're making me when we're bad influences on each other Dennis already what is on the other side? A thing your parents forced you to eat but you hated as a kid?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 21:23
Oh, wow. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I was I love food. I'm sorry. I'm not a picky eater.
Rick Denton: 21:33
I, I love it when I stumped my guests with that one. Because I've gotten several that are like, you're like, I liked everything. It's hard for me to answer that so and others who have had parents that were perhaps not as a forcing in some of the foods. And then I also had the stories of, yeah, I had to eat lima beans, and they stayed on my plate until I finished eating them. And I fell asleep at the table, that kind of thing. So glad that you had a different experience.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 21:54
You know, one of the things that was I was a little adverse to was the tentacle Doctor plus tentacle on a stick. That was like not my favorite thing.
Rick Denton: 22:01
Now, that's interesting. Not many children would say that that's an option that they've had.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 22:06
A lot of Japanese children have that option. It's common. Okay. All right. That's, that's, that's my headline.
Rick Denton: 22:12
That may be the title of the show, although we'll see that we'll see where this goes, what is one travel item, you will not, of course not including your phone, but that you will not leave home without.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 22:23
You know, I would say my extra battery for my devices.
Rick Denton: 22:35
Dennis, let's talk about something that's specific to the customer experience community. And it's actually a reason why you and I are even talking right? It's because of this that it brought you and me into a conversation just a connection to each other. There's a bunch of influencers. There's a bunch of lists. And I know that stirred up some controversy. Right. That's how I came to know you is through Alex and some of the discussions that we've seen online there. But I will say that because of that it's provided the chance to have great interactions with people of differing opinions around the world. So kind of open open up a bit here. What are your thoughts on the CX influencer world?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 23:11
Yeah, I love this question. And I love because, you know, I face honestly, I face a lot of professional friction. And here's the thing. The community is full of diverse minds and diverse opinions. And I'm an inclusive person. I welcome all of the other influencers, and I welcome people of various skill levels. I don't define people's contributions by how many podcasts they've done, or, or how many awards they have, or how many lists they're on. I like to be inclusive. My position is I welcome the friction and those who give me friction because I respect them as leaders themselves. And in the influencer market, what I would say is, and here's another fun fact, I manage a another business, I don't often talk about which is an influencer management business called Heart heartbeat.com. We manage 90,000 influencers every month. And so if you're a Sony or a large brand, and you want to bring your movie to market or launch your products, they'll come to us and hire our influencers, to help get the word out because influencers one they jump over the search engine algorithms that so you're not stuck there, but about influence influences temporary, what the best influencers are actually content creators, and as long as any individual focuses on their content, they will continue to be influential to those who appreciate their art. So I I believe in the content creator. Maybe I appreciate the term influencer for the groups that use that term, but my take on it is every time time you see an influencer, what you really see is someone trying to bring a part of their art to business,
Rick Denton: 25:08
I almost want to just sit on that for a second, bring a piece of their art to business, I'm going to let that just steepen for a second and really, really enjoy that. I like how you, you, you do describe it in the sense of the content creator and that aspect of it. And sure, there can be some fluffernutter out there. But you're right, each individual that's making that attempt, at least they're trying to share something that's a part of their heart and a part of what they're thinking is a part of what they believe about a particular topic. And so I liked that. I liked that you've given that perspective on that. I know that when you and I first talked, there was a phrase you mentioned, and we didn't really expand on it that much when you and I first talked, so I'm looking forward to this. You talked about the quote, efficiency of CX the efficiency of customer experience. Tell me more about what that means. What does that look like?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 25:57
Wow, all right, you're, you're gonna make me go there. Here's here is here, we don't have to. Here's a. Here's my own off center perspective of CX, the industry and the practitioners and efficiency. I was a nerd, I learned to solve the Rubik's Cube, I was one of those kids who when I was a kid, I sat down and I read the books and I followed all the moves. And I want to use the recipe. And I've come to realize recently that said, the CX industry is like a bunch of people talking about solving the Rubik's Cube, many of the people who you speak to can only solve one or two sides. And they'll hold that up as the solution. But if you turn it around, it's all chaos in the back. And some others. They talk about the Rubik's Cube and its mathematical probabilities, and others will talk about the genius of the toy itself. But there are very few people who are nerdy enough to just read the books and follow the sequences of CX. And what I can tell you is CX is extraordinarily efficient if you can learn the right methods and the right sequence of colors to play or practices or disciplines to implement. It's not as mysterious as everyone says. And there is an efficiency that comes from the basics. And an efficiency that comes from learning to to embrace CX, rather than treat it as a puzzle.
Rick Denton: 27:38
That's simplicity. That's the one that's really hitting me in there that the efficiency and simplicity go hand in hand. And I think you're right, I think we have complicated a lot of things in the CX world, or, or maybe just put too many layers on top of it. I was in a conversation with someone and now I can't think of what it was. But basically, you know, customer experience or customer service could be distilled all the way down to just don't be a jerk. And clearly there's more to it. But if you really wanted to start somewhere, just don't be a jerk. And then from there, build upon whatever your program is whatever you want to pursue from an overall experience perspective. And actually, I think my conversation used a different word than jerk, but that's okay, we can just stick with that this is a PG podcast. I don't want to I don't want to do the explicit flag ever, at least so far. So Dennis, I've really you can tell. My synapses are kind of churning right now and trying to chew on what you said there. I really enjoy what you've brought today. I think others might want to get to know a little bit about what you have to say and know even more about you and your company in that kind of stuff. How can people get in touch with you?
Dennis Wakabayashi: 28:46
You know, I'm on Twitter @voiceofCX I'm on. If you want to follow my personal life on Instagram. I'm @whatisDennisdoing. And of course, Denniswakabayashi.com is where I talked about things that I'm doing in the CX world personally, and my team is TEAMwakabayashi.com If anybody wants to work with us,
Rick Denton: 29:07
awesome, I will get all of that into the show notes. You don't even have to hit pause to scroll down and take a look at the shownotes click that link and have a look at the the universe of Dennis Wakabayashi...Dennis, thanks so much for today. I've enjoyed the conversation. I certainly I did not expect where the Tokyo bar story was going to go. That was an interesting little twist for me. I really enjoyed that. But certainly the insight that you've shared with me all the way back from our conversation about Dubai 20 Expo Dubai 2020. And the the the idea even just ending here with the efficiency and simplicity of CX so important, and so often things that we overlook or get wrong. So thank you for sharing that wisdom. Dennis. I really enjoyed the conversation today.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 29:47
Thank you and I just have one regret from the show. I'll share with you. My regret is you yourself are an extremely smart and wise CX person and I'm sorry I didn't get a chance It's to learn more about you and your practice and your philosophies. So please let us get a chance to catch up sometime so that I can hear your stories and learn some of your wisdom.
Rick Denton: 30:10
Well, I would be happy to do that sometimes. And it's but this today was all about you. And I thank you very much for being on the show today.
Dennis Wakabayashi: 30:17
Thanks, sir.
Rick Denton: 30:21
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
Host - Rick Denton
Rick believes the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
A sought after keynote speaker and CX leader, Rick transforms CX and VOC programs from Survey & Score to Listen and Act.
After a successful corporate career, Rick launched EX4CX - Execution for Customer Experience to bring CX victories to a wide client base.
Rick combines these loves by hosting the CX Passport podcast, a weekly talk with guests about customer experience and travel.