🎤Head to Turkey for some wise insight in “The one with the 1% Diamond Insight” CX Passport E59 Gürol Kurt🎧
👉Don't focus on NPS. focus on experience
🌍Variance in NPS scores across geographies
💁♂️Retail Self service appetite vs desire for assistance across the globe
☕Urban vs rural approach to Customer Experience in Turkey
🔧Don't worry about the score. Close the loop!
✌Being a global tourist is one of the most important paths to peace
🤩What it's like to live in Turkey, one of the most sought after tourist destinations in the world
👂How to hear customers' voices BEYOND the survey
TRANSCRIPT
Rick Denton: 0:05
You're listening to CX Passport, the show about creating great customer experiences with a dash of travel talk. Each episode we’ll talk with our guests about great CX, travel...and just like the best journeys, explore new directions we never anticipated. I'm your host Rick Denton. I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport. Let's get going. I've said it before, but I'm going to say it again. One of my favorite things about CX passport is getting to hear CX voices from around the globe. My overall customer experience ability grows exponentially when I learned from absorb and use perspectives that are different from mine. What's also delightful is to hear how certain fundamentals of customer experience are universal, regardless of geography or culture. Plus, I just like getting to talk to people around the globe. That's why I'm so excited today to virtually head to Turkey and talk with Gurol Kurt, co founder and CEO at Alterna Cx A leading experience management software company. Gurol and I came to know each other about two years ago and quickly realized we placed a high importance on what I call total voc. The idea that companies must listen and act on voice of the customer. Gurol and the full team at Alterna CX provide an excellent solution for companies who want to get real about customer experience. Beyond the business side of things I deeply enjoy getting to hear about life in Turkey and some of the great places growth has been so of course, we'll travel the travel side of things today. Gurol. Welcome to CX passport.
Gurol Kurt: 1:42
Thank you for inviting me, Rick, I'm very glad to be here.
Rick Denton: 1:46
It's gonna be a lot of fun. I've always enjoyed our conversations, and I'm glad to finally get it on tape and let the world hear our conversations as well. But let's, let's start off by talking about some of those Global Customer Experience differences and similarities about that wide global spread of your client base and what you've observed about CX around the globe.
Gurol Kurt: 2:04
Sure, I think I can bring to the table experiences from different geographies around the world. In alternate, for instance, we have a lot of customers from the EMEA region, which is Europe, Middle East and Africa, as well as Asia. I also have experiences from a my personal background in the US from the past. So I'll try to you know, keep them in mind while I'm giving examples and telling about my observations. So what are the differences what I have observed about CX around the globe? I think there are, you know, cultural differences that may significantly affect how customers perceive these experiences. For instance, before Alterna, I was at a company called Telia Sonera, also known as Telia company, and I was a customer experience director there. And I personally observed big differences in net promoter scores, NPS scores across different countries versus our opcodes. In Scandinavian and Baltic countries, they had pretty low NPS scores, it was around, you know, zero to 10, NPS, sometimes even negative. But Eurasians scores, on the other hand, were quite high like 5060 NPS. But that doesn't mean that Talea cineraria is doing much better job in forces in Kazakhstan versus Estonia. It's just the cultural differences and the demanding customers in Estonia, they're just, you know, they have much more expectations, and they don't give scores easily, whereas it's vice versa, in most of the Eurasian countries. So that was one of the cultural differences I observed. There are other observations I have, maybe I can talk about them as well. For instance, a very specific example, like sat service appetite versus expectation to get to receive help from this stuff. That's one area I want to talk about. What I've observed is in a Europe, the quality of the product is much more important than helpful stuff. So for instance, you can go to a shop, and they prefer to first check the product themselves. You know, they don't really want someone approaching me immediately in the shop. They prefer to do things on their own versus in for instance, again, Eurasian countries. There's a there's a tendency to ask for help. So when you enter a shop, you want someone to approach you and come and help you. So there are differences in terms of how customers want to be treated when they have interaction. And what in the more advanced markets, there's a growing tendency for self service appetite for self service, whereas in other countries that I've been to the there's an expectation for to receive help from the stuff in the shop or in the, wherever environment you are,
Rick Denton: 5:27
that's gonna be a challenging element for certain brands, I would think about and we're going to talk a little bit later about kind of how do we make sure that we're listening and acting to our customers. But I imagine that's where something like alternate CX comes in really handy. Handy. That's I'm grossly simplifying it but vitally important in that being able to listen to customers, because I think of a luxury brand that has global awareness. So Louis Vuitton, or Chanel, or something like that. And I see the queues of people waiting to get into those stores, regardless of whether and I'm not exaggerating that it's sitting here in Plano, Texas, or it's in Hong Kong or in Dubai. And there's a whole different set of geographies and cultures waiting in those lines to get in. And I imagine a global brand will really have those challenges of how do I respond to the customer, what's the ideal way to respond to the customer, and be able to know what's the right thing to do. And so using that voice of the customer using that ability to listen, and then act is so important, something you mentioned to me before, we're talking about across the globe. But you've also talked to me that it's not just an international difference in customer experience approach that is often just inside your own country. So you talked about a difference between city versus rural approaches to customer experience, help me understand what you've discovered there.
Gurol Kurt: 6:39
Sure. I mean, typically, in urban areas in big cities, as expected, people have limited times, and when they go to, let's say, a bank branch, and the wait time is a very important determinant of the experience, they have their their, their satisfaction out of that experience. So if they wait too long, they're very unhappy about it. Whereas in rural areas, we have seen that there is a tendency for people to spend extended periods of time chatting with the customer service representative or whoever is in the branch or shop. And for instance, they order tea or coffee. And while drinking tea and coffee, that, you know, they spent maybe half an hour chatting about the family how things are going in the economy and stuff like that. So it becomes a social experience. And they're not in a Time Rush. As opposed to the urban cases, I can say this is one of the experiences I've observed. Actually, there's another one, which could be quite interesting. When I was at Talea scenario, we were applying different service designs in different countries. And one of the service designs we were applying was about the dealer shop design, like we had a very modern design for the shop, you know, which capabilities the shops will have, what products will be sold, how they will be displayed and everything like that, in, in a Eurasian country that I was also responsible for. We came across very different behavior from the from the customers, like, especially in the rural areas, they were taking the shoes out when they were entering this dealer shop. So it's kind of Yeah, so it's kind of it's kind of like they see it, like a home or I don't know. It's a special place. It's very clean, it's very modern. And you know, they respect the place. And when they enter the shop, they just take their shoes out. This was very interesting. Observation for me as well.
Rick Denton: 9:00
These are...one that's a fascinating observation, too. There's two things there that I don't think I would ever do. One is if I'm going to the bank, which is a rare occurrence for me, but I do I do actually go to the bank, I want to get in I want to get out if somebody offered me tea, I would just, I would cringe No, no, just do my transaction give me. But I think that's why it's so important to listen to your wide customer audience, not just listen to one customer because they just listen to me they would design an experience that wouldn't work for the rest of their customers. And then that overlay, I certainly wouldn't be taking off my shoes walking into any any sort of shop. But exactly that is understanding why is that happening? What are the reasons behind that we I keep talking about listening and keep talking about understanding and hearing customers. You've talked about your observations. But it's clear that to be successful at a company at those companies. You're describing it both in the specific of your examples and then your clients as well. You've had to go from that customer's voice to action that just because they're saying something doesn't mean a lot unless you do something about it. A scorecard has no value on its own. So action has to happen. How do you help companies do that?
Gurol Kurt: 10:03
Definintely I agree. It's not the score that is important. It is about understanding what is happening on the ground, what is driving satisfaction and taking action on it. So what we are trying to do retire customers is going beyond measurement of KPIs like NPS, CSAT, etc, we help them understand what drives satisfaction in these experiences, if they improve satisfaction in particular areas, how much effect it will have on the KPIs? What are the emotions that play the most role? And how can you create those emotions in your customer. So it's it's more about the insight behind those experiences, ends then coupled with action, like you said, after you understand what's going on, you use this input as prioritization for improvement actions. And for instance, very specifically, if you know that this particular customer is angry, and if you know the reason what makes the customer angry, you can easily divert that specific case to the, to the related party in the company for fixing the situation.
Rick Denton: 11:23
that's a great example of direct action, right? That's that almost external closed loop feedback element that if something's broken, the customer's telling you it's broken, it's diverted immediately to the meeting, whatever the the pace is, right? It's diverted to the person or group that can solve for that customer. Imagine with this wide base of clients, you've had, you've seen those that are particularly adept at turning this to action and others that have taken a little bit of time to move towards that journey. What is it that you see in companies that are ready to take these insights and drive them straight to action? What is it about those companies that are ready to take this voc and do something with it?
Gurol Kurt: 12:00
What I'm seeing is, those companies have more experiences in the CX customer experience and voc area, okay, it's not about NPS measurement, it's not their priority, what they want to do is to achieve continuous improvements in customer experience. So this is like a loop continuous improvement loop. Yes, it starts with listening, and measuring NPS, stuff like that. But as I as I explained, it's more about what you do with these customer feedback, because you are collecting 1000s 10s of 1000s of feedback every day. And you need to understand what the customers are talking about. Do they have suggestions to you? Do they have complaints? Do they have certain demands from you, they want you to call them back. So you need to understand like make a contextual based decision of this feedback and get back to the customer accordingly. Sometimes you say I'm sorry, sometimes you, for instance, reflect discount. Sometimes you send a present and whatever. But you need to set everything in a contextual based decision. It shouldn't be random,
Rick Denton: 13:10
That...I'm sitting here actually trying to absorb what you just said, because there's about four or five or even more, just really juicy insights that you shared their companies that are moving to action, or those that are not focused on NPS, but are actually focused on the experience like that alone. That could be just the theme of everything, quit looking at the score, and actually look to how can you improve the experiences? It is so important, there's a lot that you shared in that one. Now, I have to add, and it has to be said that while you and I are recording this episode, the tragic events in Ukraine continue this this podcast would be well out of its league to attempt to discuss the tragedy of what is occurring. But I know that I'd be remiss not to at least acknowledge it as I'm talking with someone much closer to the situation in Turkey than I am sitting in Texas, USA. Now, I sincerely believe that tourism and being a global tourist is one of the most important paths to peace. It's a lot harder to attack and hate someone after you've shared a meal with them. It's one of the many reasons I focus on traveling will and will do so today. I ask listeners find a way to support Ukraine and also understand why I will continue with a travel discussion here. So Gurol, Turkey sits at the crossroads of Europe and Asia and has always been a sought after tourist destination as a result. Turkish Airlines even put an advertisement this year on the most expensive TV ad time in the US the Superbowl. I'd love to get your perspective as a citizen there. What's it like to travel throughout Turkey one of the greatest tourist destinations in the world.
Gurol Kurt: 14:42
It is a very strategic location. Like you mentioned, it is actually in between Europe, Asia, as well as Africa. So if you look at the map, it's right in the middle, which makes it an interesting place to visit. I think, you know, there are different reasons Why people tourists visit Turkey? Obviously, summer tourism is one reason the Turkish coastline, the Turkish Riviera, along the Aegean and Mediterranean coastline has a lot of attraction and a lot of places to visit. So Summertime is very active time. And because the climate is Mediterranean climates, especially when you are living in more colder climates, you really want to, during summertime go to places like that. Yeah, definitely, definitely. But, but for me, I meant to the I'm a tourist that prefers to discover history. So I think history is, for me is much more attractive. So I would say, the city Istanbul, which was known as Constantinople, Constantinople is, in the past, it was the capital of Eastern Roman Empire before. But the Byzantines empire, also known as Byzantine Empire, as well as the Ottoman Empire. So there is significant history when you, you know, look at it. There is another example actually hidden in mind. Recently, like, I don't know, maybe 510 years ago, they discovered a place called Goobie. Tibet, which is pretty difficult to pronounce. I know.
Rick Denton: 16:27
Don't ask me to do it. I'm glad you can.
Gurol Kurt: 16:31
Sure. Yeah, I don't worry. So this is this, this, this place is in North in Mesopotamia, we could think of it like that. It's in southeast Turkey. And it is the first temple in the world, according to the story. And so this is, yeah, this is beyond the other temples that are known in India, if I, if I recall, correctly, 9500 to 8000 BCE. So this is like, almost 10,000 years ago, they built this place. I went to this place, by the way, it's a very interesting place. And the for me, the interesting thing is, before there is a theory, the theory was advent of agriculture, a finding agriculture enabled people to settle down. Whereas this place is so old, and there was no agriculture when they built this place. So it's reverses the theory. So they first thought the religion or whatever the temple at that time, made them settle down. And because so many people settle down, they needed agriculture
Rick Denton: 17:49
will Gurol I know this, whether it's historical travel, or whether it's summer travel, even amongst some of the greatest delights in the world, it's nice to just take a little break sometime. Sometimes it's nice to just sit in the first class lounge and relax a little bit. So a little change of pace here. Join me here in the first class lounge, we'll move quickly and have some fun. What is a dream travel location from your past?
Gurol Kurt: 18:13
I would say Kathmandu Nepal. Well,
Rick Denton: 18:18
ooh. Tell me more. That's, that's not one I get very often. In fact, maybe never.
Gurol Kurt: 18:24
Sure. And actually, I already said I prefer culture as opposed to summer tourism. So Kathmandu, first of all nature rise, it's a very original place or the Everest mountain range, the Himalayan mountain range and hiking there. It's a total different experience. But in in addition to that cultural speaking, they have 1000s of different temples dedicated to different gods or for the different things. So it's a very delightful experience to see all these temples. Some of them are very small. Some of them are really huge with ornaments and, and everything very colorful. Yummy. I strongly recommend you to be there.
Rick Denton: 19:14
Yes, because most of the folks when they hear Katmandu when they hear Nepal, they think Mount Everest, and yet there's so much more of a cultural element to travel there that has nothing to do with with with climbing, hiking or anything like that. So I'm glad you brought that up, thinking forward. Now what is a dream travel location you've not been to yet?
Gurol Kurt: 19:33
I mean, moving along the same line, my preferences, I would say, Machu Picchu if you heard of it,
Rick Denton: 19:44
oh, yeah. It's a it's a beautiful I've been there. It's It's stunning.
Gurol Kurt: 19:46
You've been there.
Rick Denton: 19:47
Oh, yes.
Gurol Kurt: 19:47
Here we go. So yeah, that's where I want to go.
Rick Denton: 19:50
Oh, you will be blown away everything from just the physical element of Wait, how how did this get built in the mountaintops? But then just the surrounding and just imagining what life must have been like it is a I eagerly await hearing your story of when you have gone there and I look forward to you telling me about your trip to Peru sometime in the future. What is and by the way, Peru has some good food as well. So let's talk about that. What is your favorite thing to eat? I mean, are you everything? You and I are like, favorite thing to eat food? Yeah.
Gurol Kurt: 20:27
Yeah, food? Definitely. I mean, I think I I prefer desserts. Baklava I already mentioned to you know, is there different types of balaclavas made? Typically they make it the pistachios, yeah. That's the one that that's my favorite. Yeah,
Rick Denton: 20:46
that sounds really good. Well, let's go the other way. What's the thing your parents forced you to eat? But you hate it as a kid? aubergine? I would imagine your parents forced it on you because they thought it was healthy. Yeah.
Gurol Kurt: 20:57
I hated it. Yeah, salty. But the taste is awful. Actually, many years passed. And I graduated from college and started working and I was traveling, I was flying one day. And on the plane, they serve this, this version. Yeah, whatever.
Rick Denton: 21:20
Let me out, I don't want to be on this flight any longer.
Gurol Kurt: 21:23
On the opposite. And on the contrary, I was so hungry. That's the first time I think I was 25 years old or something that's that was the first time I had it. Now I eat it. It's not my favorite.
Rick Denton: 21:39
Oh my gosh, it is amazing what hunger will do to us. So on your travels, since you have traveled what is one travel item, not including your phone, that you will not leave home without
Gurol Kurt: 21:48
Travel book. Before I go somewhere, I make sure. You know I learned about the place.
Rick Denton: 22:00
You got just such a thoughtful nature to you want to do historical travel, you make sure that you understand the culture before you're arriving. I just love that nature about you that you really want to sort of immerse in culture and history and all of that. And when I think about an important part of total voice, the customer it is actually a culture shift for many companies getting all parts of the organization to value voice of the customer. And then understand the actions that voc can drive can be a real shift for some companies now, I've worked with clients that a way to create that culture shift involves incentives that incentive word keeps coming up. And they're either time I capital I incentives, that means money, or lowercase i incentives such as motivational actions, celebrations awards, but often that incentive approach can be a real danger for a company pointing people to focus on scores, just like we talked about before, not focus on scores, instead of the actual customer experience. So when you're working with companies, and you're helping them focus on voice of the customer, and really leverage the insights that Alterna CX can provide, how are you helping them create that tone of voice, that customer approach while still avoiding these risks of incentives and scores? And all of that?
Gurol Kurt: 23:08
Sure. I mean, probably you, you also had similar experiences, when you take your car to the repair shop. You take it back, and then somebody calls you, Dear Rick, how was your experience, and you say it's good, whatever. And then somebody will call you again, for a survey, and please give time, please. type of thing. So this is a typical example. I think most people go through this is a typical example of exactly what you just described. It's like too much focus on the score. Actually, who cares about the score? I mean, the customer experience, maybe it was a good experience, but just because of this goal. Now. It's, it's an awful experience. Right? Interesting. It's whatever you call it. So I will give you one example. There was a there was a customer experience conference that I attended before several years ago, and they brought Apple shop. People this was in London, Apple shop people on the stage and you know, they were talking about customer experiences. So one of the salesperson in the Apple shop, he he said about this voice of customer. What really is the most important, I think for me is because it energizes me like seeing the things the people are telling about the services. I provide it. Yeah, it energizes me this, I'm the one who gave those services. And this is what they tell me. So that's the take like, forget about the score. If you have that mindset, you're in continuous improvement mindset for yourself, like you're improving yourself, you're improving your shop, etc, the process and stuff like that. So that's the core. So Voice of Customer system, whether it's a solution or whether it's a You know, just the process or whatever it should be focused on. Again, continuous improvement, forget about the score, you should be making sure that you understand what's going on. And you take necessary action, and you close the loop. So you need to close the loop. If you don't close the loop by taking the action, it just becomes a report a dashboard or something and nothing changes in your life.
Rick Denton: 25:25
Boy, you are singing my song there the idea of It's my little pithy phrase, stop serving and score, start, listen and act. And that's exactly it. Too many companies are doing a voc tool, I'm not gonna use word APPROACH tool so they can see a score and then clap when the score goes up and cry when it goes down. I like what you said there about that employee specifically. Now, we don't have time to get into this. But a lot of that I imagine also gets into what employees are you hiring? What talent acquisition strategy, do you have approach for good strategy, just approach to make sure that you're hiring people that have a heart for the customer that they want to even do that, that they care about delivering experience, rather than a score itself. But that's such a challenge for companies and imagine a challenge for you as you help other companies go into a voice the customer approach. Now, I did mention that we won't have time, I noticed we're running out of time, there's something I want to ask you about. So we'll cheat and go a little bit longer here. Surveys, right? The survey is what a lot of folks when they hear voice of the customer, they think survey, that's the immediate thing in their mind. But the reality is customers are talking to us in many different voices well beyond surveys, and in fact, less and less in surveys. So how are you hearing customers voices? When survey responses continued to decline? What is it that you're guiding companies on on how they can continue to hear a customer's voice way beyond just the word survey?
Gurol Kurt: 26:38
Yeah, I mean, a survey maybe is maybe 5% of what we do, if at all, if at all. There are many cases where we don't do any, we don't execute any surveys at all. The disconnection points for us insurance, or maybe we least we listen to forums, chat, bots, complaints, social media, all these sources, different sources to get a complete picture out of the experiences. So it's it is many journeys, that the customers are going through a video to be present in all these data sources to see the complete picture. But of course, it becomes a clutter. Like there's a lot of data you're getting only Okay, what do you do with it? So, the focus area we are currently focusing on with our technology is what is the 1% inside the gym, the diamonds in that clutter, the 1% insight that will improve satisfaction that will help with the company's performance. So that's why we use all these capabilities in AI, natural language processing to look at emotions, what factors drive these emotions and so that the company can prioritize in those areas and take action and close the loop accordingly.
Rick Denton: 28:07
So important driving them from all like how you brought up the fact oh my gosh, there's so many now that we're seeing beyond survey imagine we're all where the customer speaks. Collecting that into one place. Being able to drive insights all of that 81% Insight. What is that diamond? What is that needle in the haystack? If I can add cliches, Gurol, I really enjoy talking with I always enjoy talking with her I'm glad that now others are going to get to hear your voice and your approach when it comes to voice of the customer. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more how can they get in touch with you?
Gurol Kurt: 28:38
Sure I mean they they can go to our websites AlternaCX.com in the social media channels LinkedIn we have presence again Alterna CX so whenever if they just make a search Alterna CX we are there and our contact information is also there.
Rick Denton: 28:55
Perfect. I'll get all of that into the shownotes that'll be that'll be great. So you don't even have to hit pause just scroll down you'll see there in the in the show notes and then go check out Alterna CX if this is something that interests you, Gurol, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. I've enjoyed it. Thank you for walking me through Turkey even areas that I'd never thought of we always hear about Istanbul we always hear about the beaches, but to hear about this temple that changes the views around agriculture and religion. What an amazing story. But then certainly the meat of the discussion today talking about voice of the customer, this tone of voice the customer approach this listen and act and how companies can move from just simply looking at a score but rather the insights and then the actions to improve customers experiences Gurol. Insightful always as always enjoyed it. Thank you so much for joining me today on CX passport.
Gurol Kurt: 29:41
Thank you, Rick. It's my pleasure. It's always a pleasure to chat with you.
Rick Denton: 29:49
Thanks for joining us this week on CX Passport. Make sure to visit our website cxpassport.com where you can hit subscribe so you'll never miss a show. While you're at it, you can check out the rest of the EX4CX website. If you're looking to get real about customer experience, EX4CX is available to help you increase revenue by starting to listen to your customers and create great experiences for every customer every time. Thanks for listening to CX Passport and be sure to tune in for our next episode. Until next time, I'm Rick Denton, and I believe the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
Host - Rick Denton
Rick believes the best meals are served outside and require a passport.
A sought after keynote speaker and CX leader, Rick transforms CX and VOC programs from Survey & Score to Listen and Act.
After a successful corporate career, Rick launched EX4CX - Execution for Customer Experience to bring CX victories to a wide client base.
Rick combines these loves by hosting the CX Passport podcast, a weekly talk with guests about customer experience and travel.